Búsqueda avanzada de temas en el foro

Resultados 1 al 20 de 31

Tema: Oda Nobunaga: a visionary who was open to Christianity in the 16th century.

Vista híbrida

Annuit Coeptis Oda Nobunaga: a visionary who... 24/09/2012, 16:03
Hyeronimus Re: Oda Nobunaga: a visionary... 24/09/2012, 18:43
Hyeronimus Re: Oda Nobunaga: a visionary... 24/09/2012, 18:46
Annuit Coeptis Re: Oda Nobunaga: a visionary... 24/09/2012, 19:50
Hyeronimus Re: Oda Nobunaga: a visionary... 24/09/2012, 20:14
Hyeronimus Re: Oda Nobunaga: a visionary... 24/09/2012, 20:16
Hyeronimus Re: Oda Nobunaga: a visionary... 24/09/2012, 20:17
Hyeronimus Re: Oda Nobunaga: a visionary... 24/09/2012, 20:18
Hyeronimus Re: Oda Nobunaga: a visionary... 24/09/2012, 20:20
Hyeronimus Re: Oda Nobunaga: a visionary... 24/09/2012, 20:21
Hyeronimus Re: Oda Nobunaga: a visionary... 25/09/2012, 12:11
Hyeronimus Re: Oda Nobunaga: a visionary... 25/09/2012, 12:14
Hyeronimus Re: Oda Nobunaga: a visionary... 25/09/2012, 12:25
Hyeronimus Re: Oda Nobunaga: a visionary... 25/09/2012, 12:31
Hyeronimus Re: Oda Nobunaga: a visionary... 25/09/2012, 12:34
Hyeronimus Re: Oda Nobunaga: a visionary... 25/09/2012, 12:37
Hyeronimus Re: Oda Nobunaga: a visionary... 25/09/2012, 12:51
Hyeronimus Re: Oda Nobunaga: a visionary... 25/09/2012, 12:55
Hyeronimus Re: Oda Nobunaga: a visionary... 25/09/2012, 12:58
Hyeronimus Re: Oda Nobunaga: a visionary... 25/09/2012, 13:01
Hyeronimus Re: Oda Nobunaga: a visionary... 25/09/2012, 13:03
Hyeronimus Re: Oda Nobunaga: a visionary... 25/09/2012, 13:05
Hyeronimus Re: Oda Nobunaga: a visionary... 25/11/2022, 01:29
  1. #1
    Avatar de Hyeronimus
    Hyeronimus está desconectado Miembro Respetado
    Fecha de ingreso
    16 ene, 07
    Mensajes
    20,843
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Oda Nobunaga: a visionary who was open to Christianity in the 16th century.








    This is a depiction of the martyrdom of a christian that occured during the persecutions.

    This is an original reward notice telling people how much money they will recieve if depending on the importance of the christians that they turn in. It says that one can recieve 500 silver coins for a preist and 300 silver coins for a religious brother. It also states that a person will still recieve money if they themselves are christian and that if it comes out that they have hidden one of the people they are looking for they there family and even their whole clan will be punished. They is says everyone should obey.

    This is a Shumon Aratame register. It has certification of membership in a Buddhist temple. It is one of the last. The names in the register are of public officers of Nagasaki. Everyone was forced to be a registered member of a Buddhist temple when christianity was outlawed.

    These are Maria canon. Canons are typical buddhist icons but hidden and underground christians could use them to whorship Mary and still not be overtly christian.

    This is the backside of a miror used by hidden christians on the Goto Islands.

    When Europeans heard of the persecutions of christians in Japan these renderings were made.

    They depict a litany of tourtures that happened at the hot springs.

    One can see the people that didn't renounce their faith being thrown over cliffs and tourtured in hot springs.


    This is another perspective of the statue memorializing martyrs.

    This is the bone of St. Francis Xavier. The box contains his cloak.

    Here is the back fo the wall of the 26 martyr memorial on the way out of the museum.


    Here is a canon in Nagasaki that can be seen from the 26 martyrs museum. One can see how the Maria canon could be hidden so that worshipers could pray to mary but keep it secret. The figures are very simliar.



    Untitled Document

  2. #2
    Avatar de Hyeronimus
    Hyeronimus está desconectado Miembro Respetado
    Fecha de ingreso
    16 ene, 07
    Mensajes
    20,843
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Oda Nobunaga: a visionary who was open to Christianity in the 16th century.

    Goto Islands

    The Goto Islands are off the west cost of Kyushu in the East China Sea. The island chain served as a refuge for many Sempuku Kirishitan. In 1797, Christians hiding in part of Nagasaki fled to the Goto Islands. The crackdown after the Shimabara rebellion, along with increasing persecutions, prompted many others to flee to these islands
    as well. The remoteness of the islands allowed for Christians to escape the watchful eye of government officials. Even with persecutions on the islands, the Christians lasted generation after generation. The distance from highly populated areas is a common trait in the areas as Sempuku and Kakure Kirishitans were able to remain
    hidden and to survive while holding onto their traditions. There are many Catholic churches on Goto that commemorate the Sempuku and Kakure Kirishitan struggles. Like Tsuwano, Goto had Christian prisons where
    many people were tortured and died. Many children died in the prisons because of the horrid conditions.


    Before we stopped at Hamawaki we went to a site that was a memorial to Christians that were imprisoned here. This is a shot of the small footprint of the cell in which the Christians were crammed.

    Part of the memorial has graves of people that perished here. Many of the graves were for children. The cramped conditions of the cells resulted in many children being crushed to death. The stones give acounts of how some of the children died.

    Many of the names are distinctly Christian, Maria was one of the most common.







    Here is a shot of the Church that is next and part of the memorial.



    Statue outside of Hamawaki Church.





    While he was not sure, Mr. Izumi believes that all of there graves are facing East to be facing Christian heaven; which contrasts the rest that face west toward Buddhist paradise. Even though not all of the graves have crosses the fact that they are all packed tightly and facing the same direction makes Mr. Izumi believe that the families who had the grave put here are descendants of hidden Christians. Not even the Catholics that live in the area do the same thing. It is a subtle testament to the spirit of the hidden Christians.








    Out side of the church are some small memorials to the hidden Christians for the regions. Many of the churches from this region commemorate the huge number of martyrs.




    Mr. Izumi explains the statue of the men who brought Catholocism to the Goto Islands.

    Untitled Document

  3. #3
    Avatar de Hyeronimus
    Hyeronimus está desconectado Miembro Respetado
    Fecha de ingreso
    16 ene, 07
    Mensajes
    20,843
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Oda Nobunaga: a visionary who was open to Christianity in the 16th century.


    Dozaki also has a small section of garden with naturally formed rocks. These rocks were brought from Sotome and other places Christians were fleeing from.

    Mr. Izumi explains how the rock looks like Mary and that the volcanic rock cannot be found naturally on the Goto Islands.

    This rock also has an image of Christ and Mary making it a sacred stone for the people who brought it to the Islands.

    This stone does not have the image of Christ but just the image of Mary.

    This stone just looks normal in among the others but when Mr. Izumi turns it over there is a faint cross on the back. When he replaces the stone he turns it back over hidding the cross.








    The interior of Dozaki has a small museum portion besides having a normal church.



    We then went to Mizunoura church, meaning water inlet church.

    This style of arched celling is the same in Hamawaki Church. The beautiful architechture is found in many of the Catholic churches in Goto.



    One can find the use of flowers as elements in crosses in many of the Churches of Goto.

    This stylized depiction of a camellia as a cross is unique to this region of Japan. The tsubaki (camellia) is found in almost all of the churches in Goto.

    The church grounds has a stunning garden.






    The garden also has crosses that have the fourteen stations of the cross.





    Untitled Document

  4. #4
    Avatar de Hyeronimus
    Hyeronimus está desconectado Miembro Respetado
    Fecha de ingreso
    16 ene, 07
    Mensajes
    20,843
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Oda Nobunaga: a visionary who was open to Christianity in the 16th century.








    Here is a close up of one of the stations of the cross.









    This is another shot of Mizunoura church.

    Behind the graden are some graves and monuments to some important early Japanese christians. The Statue is of Johannes De Goto one of the 26 Martyrs.




    Untitled Document

  5. #5
    Avatar de Hyeronimus
    Hyeronimus está desconectado Miembro Respetado
    Fecha de ingreso
    16 ene, 07
    Mensajes
    20,843
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Oda Nobunaga: a visionary who was open to Christianity in the 16th century.

    Ikitsuki



    Ikituki is a beautiful island just off of Hirado in Kyushu. While the island is well known for its historical and current whaling and fishing industry, it also has a dynamic past and present Kakure Kirishitan presence. The island’s geography and surroundings played a large role in the unique aspects and development in Christian practices. Ikituki has had a recent push to record this unique Kakure Kirishitan history before it is lost forever. With the economic condition pulling the youth away from the island, many of the Kakure Kirishitan groups are thinning or even disbanding. Even traditionally secretive groups feel the need to share or record the traditions their ancestors risked their lives to preserve. Our group had the pleasure of meeting with one former leader of one of these groups and one of his friends whose family used to be Kakure Kirishitan but rejoined the Catholic Church. Each man shared his own family’s history and then discussed their thoughts on Kakure Kirishitan on Ikituki in general. Ikitsuki had continued Kakure Kirishitan practices longer than other regions that suffered disintegration of their hidden Christian communities. But now even on Ikituki the hidden Christian traditions are not being passed on, the communities are dwindling out.

    http://www.stolaf.edu/depts/asian-st.../ikitsuki.html
    Última edición por Hyeronimus; 25/09/2012 a las 12:47

  6. #6
    Avatar de Hyeronimus
    Hyeronimus está desconectado Miembro Respetado
    Fecha de ingreso
    16 ene, 07
    Mensajes
    20,843
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Oda Nobunaga: a visionary who was open to Christianity in the 16th century.

    Shimabara

    The single most significant Christian historical event in Shimabara was a rebellion in 1637. There was significant Christians history in the region before the most famous one. In 1576, Lord Arima was baptized a Christian and over 20,000 residents of his land were obligated to follow suit. From that time on, the peninsula had a strong and significant Christian population. The first persecutions to take place in the region during the new Tokugawa regime took place at the Arima River during 1613. The Martyrs endured the tortures and slow deaths with such vigor and courage that it galvanized the 20,000 onlookers. In hopes of being granted the position of daimyo Hasegawa, the governor of Nagasaki, sent 10,000 troops to torture and murder the Christians into submission. This act of terror simply strengthened the people’s resolve.
    In 1616, a new ruler was appointed to the region, Shigemasa Matsukura. He moved his capitol to Shimabara in hopes of succeeding his predecessors who had failed in crushing the Christians. The people of Shimabara were forced to build a new castle for the daimyo. It took 7 years of labor, step taxes, tortures and severe punishments to finish the construction. When the peasants could not pay the taxes, their wives and daughters where taken and subjected to many forms of torture. These types of harsh punishments worsened when Iemitsu Tokugawa became Shogun. Martyrdoms and persecution were everywhere.
    In 1637, the economic and religious conditions were no longer bearable for the people of Shimabara. Disenfranchised samurai, who had been denied their rank because of their religion, and Christian peasants gathered supporters. These rebels held Hara castle and its surrounding areas for four months against government troops. The Dutch were employed by the Tokugawa government to cut off the rebels’ food and water supplies. The rebellion ended soon thereafter. All the rebels were killed: 17,000 men and 20,000 women and children. Christians all over Japan had to go underground if they hadn’t already done so. The persecutions continued for 250 years. The Tokugawa government was frightened by the rebellion and disliked foreign influence. They closed their borders to outsiders, save for the Dutch who were allowed to live on the man-made island of Dejima in Nagasaki. The period leading up to and after the rebellion was the time that the Underground and Hidden Christians lived.

    Back to Shimabara overview

    Our group was allowed to see and take pictures in the museum inside of Shimabara castle. The museum has exhibits from the different time periods of Shimabara's history. Show here are the swords and scabbard of a samurai from Shimabara.

    Samurai armor was also on display. These are the weapons and armor that would have been used by the samurai during the rebellion in 1637.

    Here is a fumie, used to draw out Christians every New Years Day. Every one in an area would have to stamp on an image of Christ or Mary to prove they were not Christians.

    The very visible crosses on these weapons were commissioned by a christian samurai.

    This pottery was also commissioned by christian, most likely by a samurai.

    Here is another Fumie.

    These are small symbols used by hidden Christians much like the Maria Canon. They looked like buddhist images but held different significance for the Christians.



    These are christian's graves just our side of Shimabara castle.







    This pillar notes that they are christian graves.

    This is a shot of our group in front of the Shimabara Castle that has the museum inside. You can see the pillar and graves to the left of us.

    We then went to Shimabara Catholic Church to hear more about the history of christianity in Shimabara.


    The inside of the church itself was unique. The circular layout and art work were different from any other churches we stopped at during our study.

    Untitled Document



  7. #7
    Avatar de Hyeronimus
    Hyeronimus está desconectado Miembro Respetado
    Fecha de ingreso
    16 ene, 07
    Mensajes
    20,843
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Oda Nobunaga: a visionary who was open to Christianity in the 16th century.




    This is a replica of a fumie. Fumie were tools of spiritual torture. They were first used in 1626; every New Years Day everyone was forced to step on an image of Christ or Mary to prove they were not Christians. In some one refused to step on they and they family were put to death. The hidden Christians used a special prayer to ask forgiveness each time they were forced to step on the fumie.

    The stain glass tell the story of Christianity in Shimabara. It starts with birth of Christ.

    Depicted here is Christianity coming to Shimabara with Father Alessandro Valignano and Luis Almeida. With the work of Valignano Arima became the center of Japanese Christian culture. He used his knowledge of medicine to help people and taught not only religion but also music gymnastics japanese history, culture and literature were taught. He shared the most advanced studies from Europe.

    In the 1580's four young seminarians went on the first diplomatic mission from Japan to Europe. The four young men are seen here.

    The story of Jesus in the garden of Gethsemane. In this story Jesus prepares for his own death. This scene offers a poignant comparison to the preparations martyrs in Shimabara made.

    The Golden age of Christianity in Japan was not to last for ever. We can see people watching their friends and loved ones be forced to renounce their faith or be drowned in the Arima river.

    This scene shows christians being burned at the stake along the Arima river. We can see a woman on the left whose son ran to her as she burned. Her hand and face are raised to heaven.

    This window shows the Martyrdom of Paulo Uchibori and other faithful being lead to Unsen to be torture in the hot springs and thrown off cliffs.

    The last window shows Christ in more of a typical portrayal with the Japanese people in the Marriage Banquet with the Resurrected Christ.

    This flag is a recreation of the flag of the Shimabara rebellion. It depicts two angels worshipping the Eucharist. It says in Portuguese, "Praised be the most holy sacrament."

    Untitled Document

  8. #8
    Avatar de Hyeronimus
    Hyeronimus está desconectado Miembro Respetado
    Fecha de ingreso
    16 ene, 07
    Mensajes
    20,843
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Oda Nobunaga: a visionary who was open to Christianity in the 16th century.






    This statue on the outside of the church depicts Paul Uchibori youngest son the age of five who showed no sign of pain when his hands were maimed. All of Paul's children had all but their thumbs and pinkies removed because the in the soldier's eyes Christians were less than animals so they should have less fingers than animals.

    Another statue portrays Valignano helping the sick.

    From the Church we went to the ruins of Hara Castle, the site of the Shimabara rebellion. We were lead by Shinji Matsumoto the historian in charge of the excavation hara castle and running Hara Culture Center. Mr. Matsumoto show us around the excavation and the culture center.

    Some areas just look like fields, others have masonry or even bones of people killed in the rebellion.











    Here are bones at the excavation.



    Mr. Matsumoto explains the various parts of the excavation and significant parts of each.

    Here is our group in front of a statue of the leader of the Shimabara Rebellion, 16 yearold Shio Tokisada.


    Many of the rebels placed crosses and medals images of Mary in there mouths so if they died the governments troops wouldn't know to strip them of these sacred symbols. This picture shows teeth around a medal.

    Here is a cross next to what looks to be a jaw bone.



    Untitled Document

  9. #9
    Avatar de Hyeronimus
    Hyeronimus está desconectado Miembro Respetado
    Fecha de ingreso
    16 ene, 07
    Mensajes
    20,843
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Oda Nobunaga: a visionary who was open to Christianity in the 16th century.


    At the Hara Culture Center we were able to see much of what had been recovered at the excavation. Here is some pottery that was recovered at Hara. The porcelain plates were found in the main enclosure of the Hara Castle ruins. This porcelain was made in the kilns of Jingdezhen in China between 1590 and 1630. The characters on the middle of the plate saying tenka ichi meaning number one under heaven. During the warring state period this was a favorite phrase of generals like Oda Nobunaga and Toyotomi Hideyoshi. During that time there was a system of checks in place that ensured that only generals could use this phrase. After Hideyoshi's death the upper class could used it as well. The Tokugawa Shogunate outlawed the use of tenka-ichi once again in 1682.

    Here are other pieces of porcelain that were fired in the Jigndezhen kilns in the Jianxi provence in China. That pottery district provided the royal court of China with it's porcelain and was a stand out in China in the industry. The existence of this pottery speaks to the prosperity of the region and the amount of trade going on in Arima.

    Here are many of the medals recovered from the excavation.





    This is one of the crosses found. It is said that the rebels would melt down the bullets that were shot at them by the government troops and fashion them into crosses.



    Here are some of those same bullets and possible a cross made of some.









    This is one of the more stunning pieces in the centers collection. It is an ornately decorated cross with intricate details all over. It also has volume which shows even more craftsmanship.



    Many remains were found at Hara Castle. The government troops killed 37,000 people once they were able to gain the upper hand. Here are some of the skulls and other remains found. You can see on some, the trauma sustained.






    Here is one of the canon balls used by the Dutch. The Dutch were commissioned by the Bakufu to cut of the rebels food supplies and help crush the rebellion. Dutch ships bombarded the castle and cut off the rebels. With no food or water the rebel couldn't last any longer. The government troops burned the castle to the ground and took apart much of its masonry. They also killed all of the rebels including women and children. For the next 250 years Christians were forced to flee and hide horrible punishments and tortures because of their beliefs.

    Untitled Document

  10. #10
    Avatar de Hyeronimus
    Hyeronimus está desconectado Miembro Respetado
    Fecha de ingreso
    16 ene, 07
    Mensajes
    20,843
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Oda Nobunaga: a visionary who was open to Christianity in the 16th century.


    Here is a larger collection of bullets from the rebellion.



    After the Hara Culture Center we went to see some sacred spaces for hidden Christians in Shimabara.






    Untitled Document

  11. #11
    Avatar de Hyeronimus
    Hyeronimus está desconectado Miembro Respetado
    Fecha de ingreso
    16 ene, 07
    Mensajes
    20,843
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Oda Nobunaga: a visionary who was open to Christianity in the 16th century.

    Tsuwano
    In 1864, French Catholic missionary Bernard Thadee Petitjean opened the Oura Catholic Church. After the completion of the Church, some of the underground Christians from Urakami confided in Petitjean by telling him that they were Christian and had been practicing the religion in secret. This was the first confirmation the Church had of remaining Christians in Japan that had stayed underground for 250 despite punishment of torture and death. Petitjean convinced some of the underground Christians from Urakami to openly follow their beliefs. By doing so, the group from Urakami went against Tokugawa religion control policy. 3400 of these Christians were arrested. While some of the Urakami villagers were imprisoned and tortured, many were sent to Tsuwano. In Tsuwano, some of the exiles were tortured and 36 were eventually put to death. Even after the transfer to the Meiji government, it wasn’t until pressure from the West mounted that the exiles were allowed to return home in 1873. In 1889, the Japanese constitution granted religious freedom. Today there is a Church and museum in Tsuwano remembering the martyrs and all of the pains endured by the Christians.



    On the way to Tsuwano we stopped in Yamaguchi to see the Catholic church there. Here is a Statue of Mary and Jesus on the way up to the church.

    Just out side is a statue of St. Francis Xavier who brought Christianity to Japan in 1549.

    Here is another statue of the Saint that is more part of the church. The inside of the church does allow photographs but it contains a small museum much of which explain the history of Xavier.

    There is a small shrine outside the church as well. The Church that we saw in Yamaguchi was a new rebuilt building. The previous one burnt down under mysterious circumstances some years before considering the church is right next to the fire station.



    After exploring the church and its museum in Yamaguchi we proceeded on to Tsuwano.

    This is a small church on the outskirts of Tsuwano. It is a memorial to the Christians that were imprisoned and tortured here.

    Here are the stain glasses of the church. They depict the suffering of Christians in Japan.









    This statue is of a man that saw a vision of Mary while he was places in a three foot by three foot by three foot cage.


    Here is a depiction of the vision that he had of Mary helping the people.

    Some of the graves next to this site could be the graves of persecuted Christians.




    Untitled Document

  12. #12
    Avatar de Hyeronimus
    Hyeronimus está desconectado Miembro Respetado
    Fecha de ingreso
    16 ene, 07
    Mensajes
    20,843
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Oda Nobunaga: a visionary who was open to Christianity in the 16th century.




    From the small church an graveyard, there is a path or small pilgrimage to another site for Christians. Along the path are the fourteen stations of the cross with descriptions in Japanese.



























    At the end of the walk with the stations of the cross you come to another Christian shrine of sorts with a few statues and carvings.



    Untitled Document

  13. #13
    Avatar de Hyeronimus
    Hyeronimus está desconectado Miembro Respetado
    Fecha de ingreso
    16 ene, 07
    Mensajes
    20,843
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Oda Nobunaga: a visionary who was open to Christianity in the 16th century.

    Katanas and crucifixes: The Japanese Otomo clan



    aniel Esparza - published on 11/20/22

    Ōtomo Sōrin converted to Roman Catholicism in 1578. He seemingly used the cross as one of the symbols of his clan.

    The Otomo clan (Otomo-Shi) was a Japanese samurai family whose power stretched over four centuries, from the Kamakura through the Sengoku periods. They were among the first Japanese to trade with the Portuguese – and even traveled with Francis Xavier to India.


    Ōtomo Sōrin converted to Roman Catholicism in 1578.

    The Jesuits, Francis Xavier leading them, arrived in Japan in 1549. Christian teachings were enthusiastically received at first, with more than 760,000 people converting throughout the country by the early 17th century. However, early fervor soon made way for the harsh persecutions that began in 1614, and which eventually led to the bloody Shimabara Rebellion, an alliance of local ronin and Catholic peasants who fought the Tokugawa shogunate’s unpopular policies, including the suppression of Christianity and the consequent persecution of Christians.

    Soon after his arrival, Francis Xavier met important feudal lords, including Ōtomo Sōrin, the shugo (military governor, although Xavier described him as a “king” of sorts) of Bungo and Buzen Provinces, who converted to Roman Catholicism in 1578. Ōtomo seemingly used the cross as one of the symbols of his clan, as seen in this katana, a ceremonial Japanese sword:

    Katana with Christian iconography from the late Sengoku period. (1590’s). likely from the Otomo clan, that was prominently Christian.” pic.twitter.com/Bk3LOliwRo
    — Read The Signs (@Semiogogue) November 10, 2022
    His motives to convert, thought, might not have been necessarily pious. Ōtomo was eager to secure further trade and contact with the Portuguese, aware as he was of the technological and economic benefits that could be derived from it. In fact, emissaries from the clan traveled to Goa with Xavier, to meet with the Portuguese Governor of India, and he sent the first official Japanese emissary to Europe, Ito Mancio, to meet with Pope Gregory XIII.



    The Japanese Tenshō embassy with Pope Gregory XIII on March 23, 1585.

    Part of this story is told in Shushaku Endo’s famous novel, Silence.



    https://aleteia.org/2022/11/20/katan...se-otomo-clan/

Información de tema

Usuarios viendo este tema

Actualmente hay 1 usuarios viendo este tema. (0 miembros y 1 visitantes)

Temas similares

  1. 10 Reasons Why Modernist Christianity Will Die.
    Por Annuit Coeptis en el foro English
    Respuestas: 0
    Último mensaje: 05/08/2012, 17:06
  2. Respuestas: 0
    Último mensaje: 20/02/2012, 12:59
  3. Respuestas: 0
    Último mensaje: 02/08/2011, 04:34
  4. Seventeenth-Century Spanish Poetry
    Por Ordóñez en el foro English
    Respuestas: 0
    Último mensaje: 21/05/2010, 10:58
  5. Joan Maragall , Oda a Espanya
    Por lezo en el foro Catalunya
    Respuestas: 0
    Último mensaje: 15/03/2005, 13:13

Permisos de publicación

  • No puedes crear nuevos temas
  • No puedes responder temas
  • No puedes subir archivos adjuntos
  • No puedes editar tus mensajes
  •