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Tema: Map Proves Portuguese Discovered Australia

  1. #1
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    Map Proves Portuguese Discovered Australia

    Map proves Portuguese discovered
    Australia: new book
    250 years before James Cook!
    A 16th-century map from the Vallard Atlas appears to mark geographical sites along Australia's east coast in Portuguese, although the orientation of part of the map is off. In a newly published book, Peter Trickett says this is because the Portuguese charts were misaligned when they were copied.

    Wed March 21, 6:26 AM

    By Michael Perry
    SYDNEY (Reuters) - A 16th century maritime map in a Los Angeles library vault proves that Portuguese adventurers, not British or Dutch, were the first Europeans to discover Australia, says a new book which details the secret discovery of Australia.
    The book "Beyond Capricorn" says the map, which accurately marks geographical sites along Australia's east coast in Portuguese, proves that Portuguese seafarer Christopher de Mendonça lead a fleet of four ships into Botany Bay in 1522 -- almost 250 years before Britain's Captain James Cook.
    Australian author Peter Trickett said that when he enlarged the small map he could recognize all the headlands and bays in Botany Bay in Sydney -- the site where Cook claimed Australia for Britain in 1770.
    "It was even so accurate that I found I could draw in the modern airport runways, to scale in the right place, without any problem at all," Trickett told Reuters on Wednesday.
    Trickett said he stumbled across a copy of the map while browsing through a Canberra book shop eight years ago.
    He said the shop had a reproduction of the Vallard Atlas, a collection of 15 hand drawn maps completed no later than 1545 in France. The maps represented the known world at the time.
    Two of the maps called "Terra Java" had a striking similarity to Australia's east coast except at one point the coastline jutted out at right angles for 1,500 km (932 miles).
    "There was something familiar about them but they were not quite right -- that was the puzzle. How did they come to have all these Portuguese place names?," Trickett said.
    Trickett believed the cartographers who drew the Vallard maps had wrongly aligned two Portuguese charts they were copying from.
    It is commonly accepted that the French cartographers used maps and "portolan" charts acquired illegally from Portugal and Portuguese vessels that had been captured, Trickett said.
    "The original portolan maps would have been drawn on animal hide parchments, usually sheep or goat skin, of limited size," he explained. "For a coastline the length of eastern Australia, some 3,500 kms, they would have been 3 to 4 charts."
    "The Vallard cartographer has put these individual charts together like a jigsaw puzzle. Without clear compass markings its possible to join the southern chart in two different ways. My theory is it had been wrongly joined."
    Using a computer Trickett rotated the southern part of the Vallard map 90 degrees to produce a map which accurately depicts Australia's east coast.
    "They provided stunning proof that Portuguese ships made these daring voyages of discovery in the early 1520s, just a few years after they had sailed north of Australia to reach the Spice Islands -- the Moluccas. This was a century before the Dutch and 250 years before Captain Cook," he said.
    Trickett believes the original charts were made by Mendonça who set sail from the Portuguese base at Malacca with four ships on a secret mission to discover Marco Polo's "Island of Gold" south of Java.
    If Trickett is right, Mendonça map shows he sailed past Fraser Island off Australia's northeast coast, into Botany Bay in Sydney, and south to Kangaroo Island off southern Australia, before returning to Malacca via New Zealand's north island.
    Mendonça's discovery was kept secret to prevent other European powers reaching the new land, said Trickett, who believes his theory is supported by discoveries of 16th century Portuguese artifacts on the Australian and New Zealand coasts.

    Second article after the launching of the book in Australia!
    Rotated map puts a twist in the foundation tale

    Steve Meacham
    March 19, 2007
    DID a Portuguese seafarer called Christopher de Mendonça lead a fleet of four ships into Botany Bay in 1522 - almost 250 years before Captain James Cook?
    The startling claim is made in a book - published today - by the retired Canberra-based science journalist Peter Trickett. Trickett believes Mendonça left irrefutable evidence of his historic voyage: a detailed and uncannily accurate map of Australia's entire east coast.
    Trickett's quest began eight years ago in a Canberra bookshop where he bought a beautiful portfolio of rarely seen maps - exquisite reproductions from the Vallard Atlas, a 16th-century document so precious and delicate it never leaves its air-conditioned vault in the Huntington Library in Los Angeles.
    The original Vallard Atlas contains 15 hand-drawn maps, completed no later than 1545 in Dieppe, France, and represents the entire world as it was then known to Europeans. Scholars had long asked why part of one of the Vallard maps - featuring 120 place names in Portuguese, not French - closely resembled the coast of Queensland. But they had dismissed it as a coincidence, because the map suddenly jutted out at right angles for 1500 kilometers, bearing no relation to any known coastline.
    However, Trickett came up with an intriguing theory: what if the atlas compilers in Dieppe had wrongly aligned two Portuguese charts they were copying from?
    He called in a computer expert who was able to cut the map in two and rotate the bottom half 90 degrees.
    "Up to that point it was just a theory," Trickett says.
    "But once it was rotated … the entire east coast of Australia, and part of the south coast as far as Kangaroo Island, was revealed in incredible detail."
    Trickett believes the charts were made by Mendonça, who set off from the Portuguese base at Malacca with a fleet of four ships on a secret mission ordered by King Manuel I. If Trickett is right, Mendonça sailed past Fraser Island, into Botany Bay, around Wilsons Promontory and as far as Kangaroo Island before returning to Malacca via the North Island of New Zealand.
    But because the Portuguese wanted to prevent other European powers learning about their discovery, Mendonca's charts were kept secret. Instead, says Trickett, Mendonça was rewarded by being made commander of the lucrative fortress at Ormuz in the Persian Gulf, where he eventually died. "His voyage ranks with that of Columbus or Magellan," says Trickett.
    "But it was secret, unfortunately."
    On the southern coast, Trickett says, Mendonça clearly marked many of the outstanding features: Cap Frimosa (Wilsons Promontory), Illa Grossa (Kangaroo Island), Rio Real (Spencer Gulf) and Golfo Grande (the Great Australian Bight). But the most significant feature on the Vallard map is Baia Neve. Trickett insists this is what Cook later called Botany Bay, the birthplace of modern Australia.
    Beyond Capricorn: How Portuguese adventurers secretly discovered and mapped Australia and New Zealand 250 years before Captain Cook by Peter Trickett, East Street Publications, $35.

    mapprovesportuguesediscoveredaustralianewbook

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    Re: Map Proves Portuguese Discovered Australia

    Guardian Newspaper from England, March 27, 2007
    Another nail in Cook's coffin
    as map suggests he was pipped by Portugal
    Charts found in bookshop cast doubt on Britain's claim to discovery of Australia
    Giles Tremlett Thursday March 22, 2007 The Guardian

    The 1547 chart said to be based on a
    Portuguese voyage to Australia in the 1520s.
    Photograph: National Library of Australia
    This map is upside down. Pay attention to the compass rose. If you rotate this map - 180 degrees - and then compare it with today's eastern Australian coast, you will have the satisfaction of seeing that both coasts match perfectly
    When James Cook thought he had discovered Australia and claimed it for the crown in the 18th century, he was late to the party. Another English explorer had been decades ahead in sighting the great southern land, while Dutch explorers had been charting the continent even earlier.
    But evidence has emerged to suggest that neither the English nor Dutch were the first Europeans to reach the continent during the great era of epic sea adventure and global circumnavigation.
    A set of maps unearthed in Australia appear to show that Captain Cook was predated by a little known Portuguese explorer, Cristóvão Mendonça, who charted parts of the coastline 250 years earlier. Drawn in the early 16th century, the charts bear a close resemblance to Australia's coastline, and this coastline is marked with locations given names in Portuguese.
    An Australian journalist, Peter Trickett, claims he stumbled on the hand-crafted documents while browsing in a Canberra bookshop eight years ago, and says they are an accurate depiction of headlands and bays along the east coast, thus proving that Mendonça navigated the area in the 1520s.
    "It was so accurate that I found I could draw in the modern airport runways, to scale in the right place, without any problem at all," he told Reuters, adding that he could recognize all the headlands and bays around Botany Bay. Mr Trickett has published his findings in a book, Beyond Capricorn.
    The maps apparently were drawn by French cartographers from a series of portolan maps, or rough navigational charts, either captured from the Portuguese or bought secretly.
    However, some academics dismiss the claim that they represent Australia. Several describe a place called "Terra Java" which bears strong similarities to Australia's coastline - except that, at one point, it juts out at right angles for more than 900 miles.
    Mr Trickett says this may be because the portolan fragments had not been assembled in the correct way.
    "There was something familiar about them, but they were not quite right," he said. It occurred to him that cartographers in France looking at the Portuguese charts may have become confused. Putting together the portolan charts, many drawn on animal hides, would be a bit like composing a jigsaw puzzle. "Without clear compass markings, it's possible to join the southern chart in two different ways," he said. "My theory is, it had been wrongly joined."
    Mr Trickett used a computer to play with the maps. When he rotated part of one map 90 degrees, he ended up with a picture that fitted Australia's east coast. The redrawn map, he says, shows a stretch of eastern Australia from Kangaroo island, near Adelaide, to mainland Australia's southern-most point at Wilson's promontory and up the east coast to Botany Bay, Sydney and beyond.
    "They provided stunning proof that Portuguese ships made these daring voyages of discovery in the early 1520s, just a few years after they had sailed north of Australia to reach the Spice islands, the Moluccas," he said. He believes the original charts were made by Mendonça after he had set sail from the Portuguese base at Malacca with four ships on a secret mission to discover Marco Polo's "Island of Gold" south of Java.
    With Spain and Portugal vying for control of the world's oceans and territories being discovered, both kingdoms kept maps and charts locked up. Many Portuguese maps were lost for posterity when the repository, the Casa da India, in Lisbon was destroyed by an earthquake in 1755.
    Australians have long speculated over other clues that point to a European presence well before the British: the remains of a so-called "Mahogany Ship", supposedly discovered on a beach in the 19th century but since lost. The vessel was said to be "dark, hard wood" made "after the fashion of a paneled door". This, say proponents of the Portuguese claim, may be a caravel, or galleon, lost by Mendonça during the voyage.
    Some even suggest that the British, when they set out to find Australia, knew Mendonça had been there, and provided Captain Cook with copies of the Portuguese charts.
    Mr Trickett believes Mendonca's feat warrants him a place alongside Christopher Columbus and Ferdinand Magellan. If he is right, then Captain Cook failed in his stated quest to go "farther than any man has been before me". Yet he remains the European credited with finding Australia, and statues of him can be found as far apart as Greenwich in London, Hawaii, and Victoria in Australia.
    Mendonça, on the other hand, retired to run a fort in what is now Iran, and his exploits remain but a footnote in Portugal's rich history of navigation and discovery.


    anothernailincookscoffinasmap

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    Re: Map Proves Portuguese Discovered Australia

    Let me play devil's advocate and ask you if you've heard of Zheng He?

    Zheng He - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    "And, as we Catholics know, Western Civilization is Roman Civilization, first classical Roman Civilization, then Roman Catholic Civilization, as the Christians preserved and carried classical Roman Civilization to the world in a Christianized form. That is, after all, why we are described as Roman Catholics."

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    Re: Map Proves Portuguese Discovered Australia

    Devil's advocate? Why? You're just presenting some interesting adds to the topic, and you're always welcome to do so in hispanismo.org.

    It's perfectly possible that the Chinese have discovered Australia and other parts of the world before the Portuguese did... before the Chinese, is absolutely certain that the Indonesian and the Polynesian natives have discovered Australia thousands of years ago. The point of this article - and all the others about this topic here in hispanismo.org - is that the Portuguese were the first of what we call the medieval Christianity.
    res eodem modo conservatur quo generantur
    SAGRADA HISPÂNIA
    HISPANIS OMNIS SVMVS

  5. #5
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    Re: Map Proves Portuguese Discovered Australia

    Of course I've heard of Zheng He. Have you heard the Spanish idiom "cuento chino"?

    The discovery of America
    by the Chinese in 1421 is a big lie!
    The author changed a map to fit his theory!
    By Manuel Luciano da Silva, Medical Doctor
    When I was a teenager and went to the public fairs on 9th and 23rd of each month, in my hometown of Vale de Cambra, Continental Portugal, one of things that impressed me the most were Chinese men selling neckties. They exhibited a variety of colorful ties on a bar at the level of the belly button, and announced loudly their price. ”It is a bargain, each for fifty escudos”. And then they sold each tie for five escudos! This price exaggeration left a mark in the people of my home town to the point that every time we heard an exorbitance we classified it as a “Chinese bargain”!
    Now the excessive publicity for the book that says that the Chinese discovered America many years before the Europeans, reminds me of the Chinese men selling neckties in my hometown in Portugal!…
    I have here in my house a copy of the video when Mr. Gavin Menzies made his presentation at the British Historical Society in London, England, concerning “his” discovery of America and the entire world by the Chinese, in 1421. His lecture is an authentic rubbish. It has no heads and no tails. He does not present any Chinese coeval documentation, or any maps, nor any confirmatory documents! The entire presentation is pure fantasy, it is a nightmare!
    What amazes me most is the organized machinery of publicity that was started in England and it is now getting generalized in the United States of America and even to other countries with translations of the book in several languages. The title of the book is: “1421- The Year China discovered America” by Gavin Menzies . This book costs $27 dollars. It is foreseen that many Americans will buy this book as a matter of curiosity. I am not going to spend one cent on it!
    A good friend of mine received a copy of this book, as a gift from his son, and my friend insisted that I should see the book, to confirm my bad impressions of the theory of Chinese being the early discoverers of America. So I did. This way I could examine the book before I could give my final diagnosis and even write my final autopsy report!…
    Examining the book “1421- The Year the Chinese discovered America”, the first thing I noticed, and verified was that the author Gavin Menzies changed a map to fit his theory of the Chinese being the first discoverers of America! That is a No, No. That is a big Boo, Boo! A honest investigator should never change an original document or map! That is a crime!
    Nautical Chart of 1424

    Mr. Gavin Menzies confesses, on the introduction of his book starting on page three, that it was the Nautical Chart of 1424 that gave him the inspiration to conceive his theory that the Chinese discovered America in 1421.
    He states that this Nautical Chart of 1424, that exists in the remarkable collection of early maps and charts at the James Ford Bell Library at the University of Minnesota, was signed by Zuane Pizzigano, on August 22, 1424. He further considers, with conviction, that this Nautical Chart of 1424 is an extraordinary cartographic achievement for that era, because of the accuracy of the coastline of Europe and Africa and also of the known archipelagos of Azores, Madeira and Canary islands. But what really dominated his attention were the four most western islands, two of which are painted in red and the other two painted in blue. He emphasizes that “the date of this map, its provenance and authenticity are unimpeachable”.
    He analyzes the names of these four islands: Satanazes, Antilia, Saya and Ymana and agrees that they are all Portuguese names! He concurs that the name Antilia is Portuguese: ‘anti’ meaning ‘on the opposite side of’, plus ‘ilha’ equal to ‘island’. So far so good. But then, suddenly, he is fooled, hypnotized by the word Antilia. And he writes: “After several months of examining charts and documents in map rooms and archives I became convinced that Antilia and Satanazes were actually the Caribbean islands of Puerto Rico and Guadeloupe”. With this statement, Mr. Gavin Menzies committed historical suicide! To fit his statement he changed the positions of the islands on the Nautical Chart of 1424!
    I am really amazed that Mr. Gavin Menzies, being a retired captain of a British submarine, did not see, immediately, that those four islands on the Nautical Chart of 1424 are on the same north latitudes as the southern part of England – his home country!— and including also the continental European coastlines all the way down to Gibraltar! These four islands are encompassed within the latitudes between 35.5 and 47 degrees north measured on the Nautical Chart of 1424! The latitudes of the islands of Puerto Rico and Guadeloupe in the Caribbean have a latitude of 18 degrees north. There is a difference of more than 27 degrees of latitude which is equivalent to more than 1,750 miles of distance! How could a British captain make such huge discrepancy? I believe Mr. Gavin Menzies had his Chinese theory preconceived!
    But he makes a much bigger blunder trying to prove his theory that the islands of Antilia and Satanazes are respectively Puerto Rico and Guadeloupe. Those islands are drawn on the Nautical Chart of 1424, practically in a vertical position, but Mr. Menzies to fit his preconceived theory simply changes the Nautical Chart and puts these islands in an horizontal position, and even upside-down, to match the geographic characteristics of the islands of Puerto Rico and Guadeloupe. Unbelievable! Too bad! The study of the discovery of Americas are in need of honest investigation not more confusion, which only serves individual capricious wishes!
    Analyzing the facts.
    First let us look at the lines of latitude on the Nautical Chart of 1424.




    On this photo we can easily see that the four islands: Saya, Satanazes, Ymana and Antilia are within 47 degrees and 35.5 degrees latitudes north. Please relate them to Europe: England, France, Spain, Portugal and Africa.







    Now let us compare all the latitudes of the north Atlantic with the latitudes in the Caribbean Sea in relation to the latitudes of Europe and Africa.
    Please note that the only American islands that are opposite to continental Europe are Newfoundland and Nova Scotia.



    Now let us observe the angles of inclination of both the Island of Satanazes and the island of Antilia. It is very easy for us to verify that they are both drawn on the Nautical Chart practically in a vertical position.
    I am sure by now you can see the geographic similarity of the islands of Satanazes with Newfoundland, and the island of Antilia with the Nova Scotia, without making much effort.



    Now let us go all the way down to the Caribbean and see what Mr. Gavin did with Puerto Rico and Guadeloupe.
    Please note that Puerto Rico is 18 degrees latitude north and Guadeloupe is at 17 degrees latitude north. Quite a difference between 35.5 and 47 degrees of latitude north as on the Nautical Chart of 1424.






    Now let us see what Mr. Gavin Menzies did to falsified the island of Antilia to match the island of Puerto Rico.
    The island of Antilia is practically in a vertical position on the Nautical Chart, but Menzies simply placed it on a horizontal position. How about that?! Look at the insert on the bottom of this photo to see already Antilia in a horizontal position! It was Menzies that made this insert at the bottom of the Nautical Chart.
















    Now let us take a look at page 253 of Menzies’ book and see what comparative drawing he made. He compared Antilia with Puerto Rico. This is indeed an unfortunate comparison!
    A historian should NEVER alter the position of an island to fit his theory!












    On page 241, Menzies presents a map of Puerto Rico together with group of the Lesser Antilles islands, and points out his selection of Puerto Rico for the island of Antilia, and Guadeloupe for the island of Satanazes.
    Puerto Rico and Guadeloupe are 300 miles apart. Puerto Rico is at 18 degrees latitude north, and Guadeloupe is at 17 degrees latitude north . Neither of these two islands have any geographic comparison whatsoever with the islands of Antilia and Satanazes in their original drawing on the Nautical Chart of 1424!





    Now, see (above) the further mess Menzies did by comparing the island of Satanazes with the island of Guadeloupe. This is even more catastrophic! He even has the island of Satanazes upside-down!!! from the original position it is drawn on the Nautical Chart of 1424! From page 249 of Menzies’ book.




    What the four islands drawn on the Nautical Chart of 1424 are, are the islands of Newfoundland, Nova Scotia and Prince Edward, on the Canadian Maritime Provinces.





    For you to see the entire monograph of this original discovery go to
    The True Antilles: Newfound land and Nova Scotia
    .

    The area size differences of all these islands compared with Portugal:

    • Continental Portugal = 34,340 square miles or (88,940 Km2)
    • Newfoundland = 43,359 square miles or (112,299 km2)
    • Nova Scotia = 21,425 square miles or (55,490 km2)
    • Puerto Rico = 3,435 square miles of ( 8,897 km2)
    • Guadeloupe = 687 square miles or (1,779km2)

    Puerto Rico is TEN times smaller than Newfoundland and Nova Scotia. And Guadeloupe? There is no comparison…
    Zuane Pizzigano drew the islands of Satanazes and Antilia on his Nautical Chart of 1424, much larger than any of the Azorean or Madeira islands. He drew them to almost the size of Continental Portugal, not as small islands as Puerto Rico or Guadeloupe. Zuane Pizzigano had information that these island were gigantic islands compared with the other islands known to exist in the Atlantic at that time of 1424.
    Unfortunately Menzies did not pay any attention to this detail of the difference of the areas. He did not notice either the importance of so many deep bays, nor to the angles of inclination, drawn on the islands of the Nautical Chart! What a pity!
    Newport Tower and Dighton Rock
    Mr. Gavin Menzies makes many unreliable statements in his book such as: the Chinese knew how to measure the longitude, they knew how desalinize the sea water, they had a fleet of 28,000 men, and their ships called "junks" were 500 feet long and 180 wide which could resist typhoons or hurricanes!... They discovered the entire world in less than two years!!!
    He says that the commanders of the Chinese fleet were all eunuchs!
    The treacherous oceans always demand sailors with big and black testicles, not castrated individuals.
    Mr. Menzies book is not a book of maritime history. It is a poor fictional novel with many incorrect historical facts.
    I am just going to give two more examples revealing his incompetence in historical research.
    He dedicates the entire 13th chapter of his book -- “Settlement in North America”-- saying that the Chinese navigators came directly from Puerto Rico in the Caribbean, to the Narragansett Bay, in Rhode Island, and built the octagonal Newport Tower and made the inscription on the face of Dighton Rock. Like Speedy Gonzales!
    He forgot to state in his book that there are no octagonal structures in China.
    How could he affirm that the Chinese made the inscriptions of the face of Dighton Rock if he never examined the Dighton Rock in loco, and he does not know archeological epigraphy! There are no Chinese hieroglyphical markings on the face of Dighton Rock.
    Portugal has tens of octagonal church towers, and built tens of octagonal church towers in Brazil and Africa.
    We should pay particular attention to the main altar in Castle of Tomar, in the Central of Portugal, which became the headquarters of the Cross of the Order of Christ of which Prince Henry the Navigator was the Grandmaster, and it was from this Order that all the moneys came from to build the Caravels with which the Portuguese discovered two thirds of the world.


    On left is the Charola or main altar in the Convent of Tomar, octagonal with 8 arches. On the right is the Newport Tower, octagonal with 8 arches.

    To see articles explaining in the detail the Portuguese Theory for the Newport Tower go to The Portuguese Tower of Newport, Chapter nine of the book Portuguese Pilgrims and Dighton Rock.



    Dighton Rock Inscriptions
    Since 1918 the Portuguese theory has been assigned to the inscriptions of Dighton Rock, engraved by Miguel Corte Real, in 1511. For 85 years, no archeologist-epigraphist has refuted the Portuguese theory.


    Dighton Rock when it was located on the left bank of the Taunton River, in 1959, with the Portuguese inscriptions traced with chalk, for didactic purposes.
    This photo shows the conclusion of the original inscriptions. To see the entire historical research of Dighton Rock, please, go to book “Portuguese Pilgrims and Dighton Rock “



    Now compare this color photograph by National geographic Magazine, Volume 147, No. 1, page 98, 1975. with the black and white photo (above)
    Flag # 1 à Portuguese Coat of Arms U shaped
    Flag # 2 à Portuguese Cross of the Order of Christ
    Flag # 3 à Portuguese Coat of Arms V shaped
    Captain’s name : Miguel Corte Real
    Date 1511 with 5 like a capital S




    The Chinese Chickens
    Chinese chicken, Menzies’, page 125
    What came first? The chicken or the egg? Mr. Gavin Menzies, says on page 123 of his book, that one morning during a visit to Peru, “as he was laying in bed, he heard the morning call of an Asiatic chicken –‘kik-kiri-kee’ –which is markedly different from the ‘cock-a-doodle-do’ of their European counterparts”. This chicken melody… was enough for him to think that those birds must be Chinese chickens brought to Peru by the Chinese fleet in 1421. Wow! Is this historical research or what?
    I have been a member of the New England Antiquities Research Association, (NEARA) http://www.neara.org/, practically since its foundation, 40 years ago. We have several of our members in NEARA that have already presented important papers concerning Chinese evidence in the Americas but not related to any Chinese huge fleet of 1421. Professor George Carter of the University of Texas AM University, archaeologist and professor of geography, was the first to reveal the Chinese connection of the chickens in South America. But he relates this event to the voyages of the Polynesian people crossing the Pacific Ocean in sailing rafts, as demonstrated and confirmed by the late Thor Heyerdahl.
    Mr. Menzies’ book is loaded with much scant and false documentation to the point that he already is being bombarded with much negative criticism, not only from America but even from the scholars and historians in Beijing China, where they do not believe his theory at all!
    As for his defense he says that he wrote his book 'to stimulate more research in the discovery of America!'Why didn’t he give the title of his book the discovery of Peru or Ecuador? He gave it the name “The Discovery of America” because he and his publishing company want to get more dollars! It seems that everybody is talking bad about America, but they all want to come here to exploit from the Americans more dollars! Amazing!

    thediscoveryofamericabychineseis1424isabiglie

  6. #6
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    Re: Map Proves Portuguese Discovered Australia

    Yes, I've heard of Zheng He. Have you heard the Spanish idiom "cuento chino"?

    The discovery of America
    by the Chinese in 1421 is a big lie!
    The author changed a map to fit his theory!
    By Manuel Luciano da Silva, Medical Doctor
    When I was a teenager and went to the public fairs on 9th and 23rd of each month, in my hometown of Vale de Cambra, Continental Portugal, one of things that impressed me the most were Chinese men selling neckties. They exhibited a variety of colorful ties on a bar at the level of the belly button, and announced loudly their price. ”It is a bargain, each for fifty escudos”. And then they sold each tie for five escudos! This price exaggeration left a mark in the people of my home town to the point that every time we heard an exorbitance we classified it as a “Chinese bargain”!
    Now the excessive publicity for the book that says that the Chinese discovered America many years before the Europeans, reminds me of the Chinese men selling neckties in my hometown in Portugal!…
    I have here in my house a copy of the video when Mr. Gavin Menzies made his presentation at the British Historical Society in London, England, concerning “his” discovery of America and the entire world by the Chinese, in 1421. His lecture is an authentic rubbish. It has no heads and no tails. He does not present any Chinese coeval documentation, or any maps, nor any confirmatory documents! The entire presentation is pure fantasy, it is a nightmare!
    What amazes me most is the organized machinery of publicity that was started in England and it is now getting generalized in the United States of America and even to other countries with translations of the book in several languages. The title of the book is: “1421- The Year China discovered America” by Gavin Menzies . This book costs $27 dollars. It is foreseen that many Americans will buy this book as a matter of curiosity. I am not going to spend one cent on it!
    A good friend of mine received a copy of this book, as a gift from his son, and my friend insisted that I should see the book, to confirm my bad impressions of the theory of Chinese being the early discoverers of America. So I did. This way I could examine the book before I could give my final diagnosis and even write my final autopsy report!…
    Examining the book “1421- The Year the Chinese discovered America”, the first thing I noticed, and verified was that the author Gavin Menzies changed a map to fit his theory of the Chinese being the first discoverers of America! That is a No, No. That is a big Boo, Boo! A honest investigator should never change an original document or map! That is a crime!
    Nautical Chart of 1424

    Mr. Gavin Menzies confesses, on the introduction of his book starting on page three, that it was the Nautical Chart of 1424 that gave him the inspiration to conceive his theory that the Chinese discovered America in 1421.
    He states that this Nautical Chart of 1424, that exists in the remarkable collection of early maps and charts at the James Ford Bell Library at the University of Minnesota, was signed by Zuane Pizzigano, on August 22, 1424. He further considers, with conviction, that this Nautical Chart of 1424 is an extraordinary cartographic achievement for that era, because of the accuracy of the coastline of Europe and Africa and also of the known archipelagos of Azores, Madeira and Canary islands. But what really dominated his attention were the four most western islands, two of which are painted in red and the other two painted in blue. He emphasizes that “the date of this map, its provenance and authenticity are unimpeachable”.
    He analyzes the names of these four islands: Satanazes, Antilia, Saya and Ymana and agrees that they are all Portuguese names! He concurs that the name Antilia is Portuguese: ‘anti’ meaning ‘on the opposite side of’, plus ‘ilha’ equal to ‘island’. So far so good. But then, suddenly, he is fooled, hypnotized by the word Antilia. And he writes: “After several months of examining charts and documents in map rooms and archives I became convinced that Antilia and Satanazes were actually the Caribbean islands of Puerto Rico and Guadeloupe”. With this statement, Mr. Gavin Menzies committed historical suicide! To fit his statement he changed the positions of the islands on the Nautical Chart of 1424!
    I am really amazed that Mr. Gavin Menzies, being a retired captain of a British submarine, did not see, immediately, that those four islands on the Nautical Chart of 1424 are on the same north latitudes as the southern part of England – his home country!— and including also the continental European coastlines all the way down to Gibraltar! These four islands are encompassed within the latitudes between 35.5 and 47 degrees north measured on the Nautical Chart of 1424! The latitudes of the islands of Puerto Rico and Guadeloupe in the Caribbean have a latitude of 18 degrees north. There is a difference of more than 27 degrees of latitude which is equivalent to more than 1,750 miles of distance! How could a British captain make such huge discrepancy? I believe Mr. Gavin Menzies had his Chinese theory preconceived!
    But he makes a much bigger blunder trying to prove his theory that the islands of Antilia and Satanazes are respectively Puerto Rico and Guadeloupe. Those islands are drawn on the Nautical Chart of 1424, practically in a vertical position, but Mr. Menzies to fit his preconceived theory simply changes the Nautical Chart and puts these islands in an horizontal position, and even upside-down, to match the geographic characteristics of the islands of Puerto Rico and Guadeloupe. Unbelievable! Too bad! The study of the discovery of Americas are in need of honest investigation not more confusion, which only serves individual capricious wishes!
    Analyzing the facts.
    First let us look at the lines of latitude on the Nautical Chart of 1424.




    On this photo we can easily see that the four islands: Saya, Satanazes, Ymana and Antilia are within 47 degrees and 35.5 degrees latitudes north. Please relate them to Europe: England, France, Spain, Portugal and Africa.







    Now let us compare all the latitudes of the north Atlantic with the latitudes in the Caribbean Sea in relation to the latitudes of Europe and Africa.
    Please note that the only American islands that are opposite to continental Europe are Newfoundland and Nova Scotia.



    Now let us observe the angles of inclination of both the Island of Satanazes and the island of Antilia. It is very easy for us to verify that they are both drawn on the Nautical Chart practically in a vertical position.
    I am sure by now you can see the geographic similarity of the islands of Satanazes with Newfoundland, and the island of Antilia with the Nova Scotia, without making much effort.



    Now let us go all the way down to the Caribbean and see what Mr. Gavin did with Puerto Rico and Guadeloupe.
    Please note that Puerto Rico is 18 degrees latitude north and Guadeloupe is at 17 degrees latitude north. Quite a difference between 35.5 and 47 degrees of latitude north as on the Nautical Chart of 1424.






    Now let us see what Mr. Gavin Menzies did to falsified the island of Antilia to match the island of Puerto Rico.
    The island of Antilia is practically in a vertical position on the Nautical Chart, but Menzies simply placed it on a horizontal position. How about that?! Look at the insert on the bottom of this photo to see already Antilia in a horizontal position! It was Menzies that made this insert at the bottom of the Nautical Chart.
















    Now let us take a look at page 253 of Menzies’ book and see what comparative drawing he made. He compared Antilia with Puerto Rico. This is indeed an unfortunate comparison!
    A historian should NEVER alter the position of an island to fit his theory!












    On page 241, Menzies presents a map of Puerto Rico together with group of the Lesser Antilles islands, and points out his selection of Puerto Rico for the island of Antilia, and Guadeloupe for the island of Satanazes.
    Puerto Rico and Guadeloupe are 300 miles apart. Puerto Rico is at 18 degrees latitude north, and Guadeloupe is at 17 degrees latitude north . Neither of these two islands have any geographic comparison whatsoever with the islands of Antilia and Satanazes in their original drawing on the Nautical Chart of 1424!





    Now, see (above) the further mess Menzies did by comparing the island of Satanazes with the island of Guadeloupe. This is even more catastrophic! He even has the island of Satanazes upside-down!!! from the original position it is drawn on the Nautical Chart of 1424! From page 249 of Menzies’ book.




    What the four islands drawn on the Nautical Chart of 1424 are, are the islands of Newfoundland, Nova Scotia and Prince Edward, on the Canadian Maritime Provinces.





    For you to see the entire monograph of this original discovery go to
    The True Antilles: Newfound land and Nova Scotia
    .

    The area size differences of all these islands compared with Portugal:

    • Continental Portugal = 34,340 square miles or (88,940 Km2)
    • Newfoundland = 43,359 square miles or (112,299 km2)
    • Nova Scotia = 21,425 square miles or (55,490 km2)
    • Puerto Rico = 3,435 square miles of ( 8,897 km2)
    • Guadeloupe = 687 square miles or (1,779km2)

    Puerto Rico is TEN times smaller than Newfoundland and Nova Scotia. And Guadeloupe? There is no comparison…
    Zuane Pizzigano drew the islands of Satanazes and Antilia on his Nautical Chart of 1424, much larger than any of the Azorean or Madeira islands. He drew them to almost the size of Continental Portugal, not as small islands as Puerto Rico or Guadeloupe. Zuane Pizzigano had information that these island were gigantic islands compared with the other islands known to exist in the Atlantic at that time of 1424.
    Unfortunately Menzies did not pay any attention to this detail of the difference of the areas. He did not notice either the importance of so many deep bays, nor to the angles of inclination, drawn on the islands of the Nautical Chart! What a pity!
    Newport Tower and Dighton Rock
    Mr. Gavin Menzies makes many unreliable statements in his book such as: the Chinese knew how to measure the longitude, they knew how desalinize the sea water, they had a fleet of 28,000 men, and their ships called "junks" were 500 feet long and 180 wide which could resist typhoons or hurricanes!... They discovered the entire world in less than two years!!!
    He says that the commanders of the Chinese fleet were all eunuchs!
    The treacherous oceans always demand sailors with big and black testicles, not castrated individuals.
    Mr. Menzies book is not a book of maritime history. It is a poor fictional novel with many incorrect historical facts.
    I am just going to give two more examples revealing his incompetence in historical research.
    He dedicates the entire 13th chapter of his book -- “Settlement in North America”-- saying that the Chinese navigators came directly from Puerto Rico in the Caribbean, to the Narragansett Bay, in Rhode Island, and built the octagonal Newport Tower and made the inscription on the face of Dighton Rock. Like Speedy Gonzales!
    He forgot to state in his book that there are no octagonal structures in China.
    How could he affirm that the Chinese made the inscriptions of the face of Dighton Rock if he never examined the Dighton Rock in loco, and he does not know archeological epigraphy! There are no Chinese hieroglyphical markings on the face of Dighton Rock.
    Portugal has tens of octagonal church towers, and built tens of octagonal church towers in Brazil and Africa.
    We should pay particular attention to the main altar in Castle of Tomar, in the Central of Portugal, which became the headquarters of the Cross of the Order of Christ of which Prince Henry the Navigator was the Grandmaster, and it was from this Order that all the moneys came from to build the Caravels with which the Portuguese discovered two thirds of the world.


    On left is the Charola or main altar in the Convent of Tomar, octagonal with 8 arches. On the right is the Newport Tower, octagonal with 8 arches.

    To see articles explaining in the detail the Portuguese Theory for the Newport Tower go to The Portuguese Tower of Newport, Chapter nine of the book Portuguese Pilgrims and Dighton Rock.



    Dighton Rock Inscriptions
    Since 1918 the Portuguese theory has been assigned to the inscriptions of Dighton Rock, engraved by Miguel Corte Real, in 1511. For 85 years, no archeologist-epigraphist has refuted the Portuguese theory.


    Dighton Rock when it was located on the left bank of the Taunton River, in 1959, with the Portuguese inscriptions traced with chalk, for didactic purposes.
    This photo shows the conclusion of the original inscriptions. To see the entire historical research of Dighton Rock, please, go to book “Portuguese Pilgrims and Dighton Rock “



    Now compare this color photograph by National geographic Magazine, Volume 147, No. 1, page 98, 1975. with the black and white photo (above)
    Flag # 1 à Portuguese Coat of Arms U shaped
    Flag # 2 à Portuguese Cross of the Order of Christ
    Flag # 3 à Portuguese Coat of Arms V shaped
    Captain’s name : Miguel Corte Real
    Date 1511 with 5 like a capital S




    The Chinese Chickens
    Chinese chicken, Menzies’, page 125
    What came first? The chicken or the egg? Mr. Gavin Menzies, says on page 123 of his book, that one morning during a visit to Peru, “as he was laying in bed, he heard the morning call of an Asiatic chicken –‘kik-kiri-kee’ –which is markedly different from the ‘cock-a-doodle-do’ of their European counterparts”. This chicken melody… was enough for him to think that those birds must be Chinese chickens brought to Peru by the Chinese fleet in 1421. Wow! Is this historical research or what?
    I have been a member of the New England Antiquities Research Association, (NEARA) http://www.neara.org/, practically since its foundation, 40 years ago. We have several of our members in NEARA that have already presented important papers concerning Chinese evidence in the Americas but not related to any Chinese huge fleet of 1421. Professor George Carter of the University of Texas AM University, archaeologist and professor of geography, was the first to reveal the Chinese connection of the chickens in South America. But he relates this event to the voyages of the Polynesian people crossing the Pacific Ocean in sailing rafts, as demonstrated and confirmed by the late Thor Heyerdahl.
    Mr. Menzies’ book is loaded with much scant and false documentation to the point that he already is being bombarded with much negative criticism, not only from America but even from the scholars and historians in Beijing China, where they do not believe his theory at all!
    As for his defense he says that he wrote his book 'to stimulate more research in the discovery of America!'Why didn’t he give the title of his book the discovery of Peru or Ecuador? He gave it the name “The Discovery of America” because he and his publishing company want to get more dollars! It seems that everybody is talking bad about America, but they all want to come here to exploit from the Americans more dollars! Amazing!

    thediscoveryofamericabychineseis1424isabiglie

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    Re: Map Proves Portuguese Discovered Australia

    The Book By Menzies Is A Grotesque Fraud! ~
    By Maria Cristine Marques Pedroso Malhão Pereira
    Janeiro 29, 2005
    Last month, Galvin Menzies came to Portugal to present his book-- “1421 the year the Chinese discovered the world?”. As it is a very polemical book, Prof. Jin Guo Ping, a Chinese teacher living in Portugal, with great knowledge of the Portuguese History and also of the Chinese, was invited as an opponent to the author.
    My husband, a Portuguese naval officer, who published one book about navigation, and another about Vasco da Gama voyage, and spent most of his life cruising the world aboard several sailing ships, and was for four years commander of the “Sagres”, the Portuguese Tall Ship, and has a master degree in History of the Discoveries and Expansion, was also asked, by some universities teachers, to be present and discuss the mentioned book.
    For a whole week, at home, I watched my husband, while reading Menzies book, becoming furious with some of its passages and saying that he couldn’t understand how so many people have been foolish by such extraordinary inventions. He went on, showing me old maps, telling me of eclipses mentioned in the book that he (with a sophisticated computer program), could prove that the Chinese junks were never seen in such places -- because the eclipse was seen in one area and Menzies located his junks in another completely different -- and my husband went on, speaking about longitudes and latitudes and commenting how Menzies had distorted maps to prove his wrong suppositions,and laughing at the speed Gavin Menzies assumed the old junks could sail.
    So, when the day arrived, I entered the conference hall, completed convinced that the book was a grotesque fraud!
    In front of me, seated at a huge table, decorated with expensive exotic flowers, I finally met the author. He impressed me favorably, with his stylish coat, oxford shirt and club tie. His shoes were the proof that he was a very British Dandy indeed! When he got up, I was completely involved by his well modulated voice. Being a charming old gentleman, speaking effortlessly and showing perfect knowledge of what he was affirming, in seconds he conquered me. He went on showing charts, juxtaposing them, transporting them from one place to the other… well…in no time I forgot all what my husband had for a week told me, and I truly believed the author. I looked at my husband, and I thought :- “Ho! the poor darling must have seen the things completely wrong. Of course the British gentleman is right. Of course the Chinese went all over the world, like the Flying Dutchmen. Why not?.”
    Chinese Professor
    When the charming author finished his presentation, the Chinese professor started commenting, and he was horrible, awfully, terrible, to my hero. He even said that the author, without knowing a world of Chinese, being so stupid, he didn’t even know what Malayalam (the language spoken by thousands of Indians around Calicut ) is, dared to think he knew more about Chinese History, than the billions of Chinese do. He wonder how could a foreigner, with no knowledge of China, not speaking Chinese, without studying the Chinese old scripts, pretended to know more about the Chinese Eunuch Admiral Zheng He, than the millions of Chinese historians, who are this year commemorating the 600 years of his seven well documented voyages do. He also spoke about the DNA proof referred by Menzies, saying that as everybody knows, the DNA can say that Chinese blood exists in somebody veins, but can not say, in what year it appeared in that person. And he laughed in Menzies own presence. Well, he went on, and on, being so nearly rude to my hero, that he even called him a liar, in Menzies own face. I must say I was appalled!
    My Husband
    Then it was my husband’s turn to speak. I nearly pulled his coat down, to prevent him of saying one more word against the poor gentlemen. But nothing could stop him. Thanks goodness, he was always very polite, nearly deferent to the older naval officer, but he went on, and on, commenting page after page, showing maps, saying Menzies had distorted them to serve his own fraudulent purposes, saying that it was completely impossible that huge juncos could ever sail against currents and specially against the monsoon.
    There, as I had accompanied my husband to Calicut to study the possible anchorage of Vasco da Gama Fleet, and to document my husband’s book, I for sure know that no sailing ship can anchor in those waters during the monsoon or can sail against that predictable huge climatically phenomenon ( particularly an ancient boat that couldn’t sail against wind). So I looked at my hero’s face….he was very serene showing no sign of even listening to what was being said. There he was, playing with a pen, endlessly turning in his fingers… I was intrigued.
    My husband went on, commenting how could Menzies imagine that the Chinese fleet sailed in the winter around the Cape of Good Hope area, without even loosing a ship, when it is known and proven, that those dangerous waters are full of wrecks of so many different nationalities except Chinese (of course they never arrived there). My husband commented, that in South Africa, where we both went for a conference last August, there is a group of historians and archaeologists called Centre for Portuguese Nautical Studies, exploring the Portuguese wrecks of the XVI century, and till now, although they have studied nine Portuguese wrecks, and dived all over the area, they haven’t discovered any evidence of Chinese junks. How come Menzies didn’t even have a broken mast to prove the passage of the Chinese fleet around the whole world, while we, the Portuguese, have such great proof of our passage for so many places?
    Then it was Menzies turn to reply
    There I was, very still, waiting for my hero to defend himself….but he didn’t even address the Chinese professor. He only looked to my husband side, and in a very shyly way, said in a low voice. –“Thank you Captain, in my next edition I will correct some of the things you have so accurately pointed out. But speaking of the Monsoon, well, it is a very complex matter, to which I will refer later.”
    And that was the end of it. I was so embarrassed that I had difficulty in getting up. Then I understood it all. The man is really a liar.
    He is so smart, that he only mentioned the problem of the monsoons, pointed out by my husband, because it was the only matter that the audience had understood. All the rest my husband had commented about charts and stars, nautical knots, latitudes and so on, was far too professional for that apple pie audience to understand. So the liar didn’t even bothered to comment.
    I was so furious, discovering all this fraud, that today, I took my time, and I decided to write this, to advise people like me, to be aware of such a big trick. I want to help people not to be as frustrated and deceived as I have been.
    Cristina Malhão Pereira
    madrugada@sapo.pt


    thebookbymenziesisagrotesquefraud

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    Re: Map Proves Portuguese Discovered Australia

    Cita Iniciado por Irmão de Cá Ver mensaje
    Devil's advocate? Why? You're just presenting some interesting adds to the topic, and you're always welcome to do so in hispanismo.org.

    It's perfectly possible that the Chinese have discovered Australia and other parts of the world before the Portuguese did... before the Chinese, is absolutely certain that the Indonesian and the Polynesian natives have discovered Australia thousands of years ago. The point of this article - and all the others about this topic here in hispanismo.org - is that the Portuguese were the first of what we call the medieval Christianity.
    I wasn't implying that the Chinese "discovered" the Western Hemisphere. There's antecdotes in certain Chinese histories of a land called Fu-Shang, which a few fringe commentators say is North America. I'm not sure if it's referenced in 1421 book or not but I do know that the maritime history of the Chinese is one of the oldest in the world; the Chinese were trading by sail all over the Far East since well before any of the modern European nations existed and I was just bringing up the name of Zheng He, arguably China's greatest maritime explorer, as a potential "what-if." The man is hardly known in the west but his explorations were on a scale that dwarfs anything of the time.

    If the Chinese "discovered" North America there presence was minute and irrelevant in the grand scheme of things.
    "And, as we Catholics know, Western Civilization is Roman Civilization, first classical Roman Civilization, then Roman Catholic Civilization, as the Christians preserved and carried classical Roman Civilization to the world in a Christianized form. That is, after all, why we are described as Roman Catholics."

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    Re: Map Proves Portuguese Discovered Australia

    This is the only information that Google reveals after a quick search that pertains to Chinese exploration of the Western Hemisphere. As I've said, it's largely antecdotal and based on a few fragmentary bits of evidence:

    Weird California

    The record of European exploration is much more easily document and one thinks that the Chinese, being a highly literate civilization, would've detailed any explorations into the Western Hemisphere in their histories.
    "And, as we Catholics know, Western Civilization is Roman Civilization, first classical Roman Civilization, then Roman Catholic Civilization, as the Christians preserved and carried classical Roman Civilization to the world in a Christianized form. That is, after all, why we are described as Roman Catholics."

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    Re: Map Proves Portuguese Discovered Australia

    It is a known fact that the Chinese believed the Earth was flat and the Jesuits had a hard time convincing them that it was spherical. And this was two centuries after Zheng He's suppossed voyages. The Chinese also brag about having many milleniums or recorded history, and yet no evidence has been provided so far as far as Chinese documents are concerned.

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    Re: Map Proves Portuguese Discovered Australia

    Cita Iniciado por Hyeronimus Ver mensaje
    It is a known fact that the Chinese believed the Earth was flat and the Jesuits had a hard time convincing them that it was spherical. And this was two centuries after Zheng He's suppossed voyages. The Chinese also brag about having many milleniums or recorded history, and yet no evidence has been provided so far as far as Chinese documents are concerned.
    The oldest examples of Chinese literature come from the beginnings of the Zhou Dynasty, circa 1,000bce. The Chinese script developed from this:

    Oracle bone script - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    The Shang Dynasty, which preceeded the Zhou Dynasty, is semi-legendary.

    Hm, Jesuits in China circa the 12th/13th century? Would that've been due to the communications between Pope Gregory X and Kublai Khan?
    "And, as we Catholics know, Western Civilization is Roman Civilization, first classical Roman Civilization, then Roman Catholic Civilization, as the Christians preserved and carried classical Roman Civilization to the world in a Christianized form. That is, after all, why we are described as Roman Catholics."

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    Hm, Jesuits in China circa the 12th/13th century? Would that've been due to the communications between Pope Gregory X and Kublai Khan?
    That seems likely.


    "In his book, Il Milione, Marco explains how Kubilai officially received the Polos and sent them back — with a Mongol named Koeketei as an ambassador to the Pope.. They brought with them a letter from the Khan requesting educated people to come and teach Christianity and Western customs to his people, and the paiza, a golden tablet a foot long and three inches wide, authorizing the holder to require and obtain lodging, horses and food throughout the Great Khan's dominion. Koeketei left in the middle of the journey, leaving the Polos to travel alone to Ayas in the Armenian Kingdom of Cilicia. From that port city, they sailed to Saint Jean d'Acre, capital of the Kingdom of Jerusalem."

    "The long sede vacante — between the death of Pope Clement IV, in 1268, , and the election of Pope Gregory X, in 1271— prevented the Polos from fulfilling Kublai’s request. As suggested by Theobald Visconti, papal legate for the realm of Egypt, in Acres for the Ninth Crusade, the two brothers returned to Venice in 1269 or 1270, waiting for the nomination of the new Pope."

    Carrying the Pope's Response to Kublai Khan (1271) : From Cave Paintings to the Internet

    Okay, back on topic. Maybe we can split the thread.
    "And, as we Catholics know, Western Civilization is Roman Civilization, first classical Roman Civilization, then Roman Catholic Civilization, as the Christians preserved and carried classical Roman Civilization to the world in a Christianized form. That is, after all, why we are described as Roman Catholics."

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    Re: Map Proves Portuguese Discovered Australia

    Jesuits in the 12th or 13th century? No way! Saint Ignatius, the founder of the Jesuits, lived in the 15th century. I said two centuries after Zheng He's supposed voyages, that is, in the 16th century, at the time of Matteo Ricci. But in the 12th and 13th there were Franciscan missionaries and emissaries to China, such as Giovanni da Pian del Carpine.

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    Re: Map Proves Portuguese Discovered Australia

    Cita Iniciado por Hyeronimus Ver mensaje
    Jesuits in the 12th or 13th century? No way! Saint Ignatius, the founder of the Jesuits, lived in the 15th century. I said two centuries after Zheng He's supposed voyages, that is, in the 16th century, at the time of Matteo Ricci. But in the 12th and 13th there were Franciscan missionaries and emissaries to China, such as Giovanni da Pian del Carpine.
    Doh, I misread your post! I suppose that happens when you're multitasking between a forum and writing an essay for one of your law classes.

    Matteo Ricci, I'm aware of him; he's responsible for introducing the writings of the Confucians to Europe I do believe. In addition to being in China the Jesuits were also active in Japan at about the same time.

    Franciscans, Jesuits.. Was it a common practice for Spanish and Portuguese explorers to travel with members of one of the monastic orders?
    "And, as we Catholics know, Western Civilization is Roman Civilization, first classical Roman Civilization, then Roman Catholic Civilization, as the Christians preserved and carried classical Roman Civilization to the world in a Christianized form. That is, after all, why we are described as Roman Catholics."

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    Franciscans, Jesuits.. Was it a common practice for Spanish and Portuguese explorers to travel with members of one of the monastic orders?
    Yes, that way we evangelized the world.

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    Re: Map Proves Portuguese Discovered Australia

    Cita Iniciado por Hyeronimus Ver mensaje
    Yes, that way we evangelized the world.
    We as in Catholics? The Spanish?

    Located in New York State, where I reside. The natives were converted by the French, but the first Catholic casualties were a couple of Jesuits and some Mohawk converts:

    Shrine of Our Lady of Martyrs
    "And, as we Catholics know, Western Civilization is Roman Civilization, first classical Roman Civilization, then Roman Catholic Civilization, as the Christians preserved and carried classical Roman Civilization to the world in a Christianized form. That is, after all, why we are described as Roman Catholics."

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    Re: Map Proves Portuguese Discovered Australia

    The Spanish and the Portuguese. Mainly us, since we conquered much of the world, but the French also evangelized in Canada and no doubt in parts of present day U.S. adjoining Canada.

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    Re: Map Proves Portuguese Discovered Australia

    Libros antiguos y de colección en IberLibro
    Cita Iniciado por Hyeronimus Ver mensaje
    The Spanish and the Portuguese. Mainly us, since we conquered much of the world, but the French also evangelized in Canada and no doubt in parts of present day U.S. adjoining Canada.
    There're a few thousand Acadians in Vermont, New Hampshire and Maine iirc.
    "And, as we Catholics know, Western Civilization is Roman Civilization, first classical Roman Civilization, then Roman Catholic Civilization, as the Christians preserved and carried classical Roman Civilization to the world in a Christianized form. That is, after all, why we are described as Roman Catholics."

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